Well done Stephen. A great message for everyone in the Liberal Party.

I love how the title says "Hon", for "Honourable". What a load of shit.

As with all moral issues, our beliefs about our origin determine our attitude.  If we believe that we arose from slime by a combination of random chance events and the struggle for survival, it is understandable to say that there is no higher authority and we can make our own rules.  However, if there is a loving God who planned us and gave commands for us to follow, then we must do so.  God has set forth His standards in the Bible, beginning with the foundational teaching in the book of Genesis. (excerpt from AIG)

Hi Stephen,
What is sin? By whose standard? If we each create our own set of what is right and wrong, (i.e. postmodern values), how can you say your set of values are better than mine?
At best you can say that you don't personally agree with homophobia, as I don't gather that you have a higher source of moral authority to appeal to.
However, happy to hear if you have a logical argument to back up your statement.
Ben

It saddens me that as a liberal, a citizen, a tax payer, a business owner and a highly successful career orientated gay female - that I read things like this. I'm about building a better, stronger Australia and I believe liberal is a strong party to achieve this. So why piss off people who are gay when we have a say? We vote, and believe me, you need more votes than you think. It's the swinging voters that elect a party.... why turn us away when we believe in you? Why not believe in us and respect that we too contribute to society? Open your mind - you will be amazed what you see!! This "gay sin" will be closer to you than you think. Heaven forbid someone in your family is gay, someone you love. How would this make them feel? It's not a sin. Who are we hurting? I'm a creature of God just as much as you are. Where is the sin in that?

I cant understand why he sickens you

Read the sign people - he's saying that HATRED of homosexuality is a sin, not that homosexuality is a sin. Crikey!

Ah yes, I think this was a bad choice of words. I thought he was an arsehole until I realised he is actually saying 'Homophobia is bad' rather than 'Homosexuality is bad'.

So given this, I agree with the sign.

Please disregard my earlier comment(s), I thought it said "Homosexuality is a sin", not "Homophobia is a Sin". My apologies.

This guy is definitely admirable... even if the Liberal party is a pack of idiots.

So glad you pointed that out - my apologies! xxx

This has been an issue for my wife and I for years - if a group were told they didn't have the same rights as others due to their race, nationality, religion, gender, etc there would be an outcry...how can it be legal for there to be inequality based on sexuality (especially here in Australia where we champion the idea of a 'fair go')!?!

Whichever political party is bold (and intelligent) enough to support equal rights for all (including the right to marry), regardless of sexuality, gets my vote in the next election !!!

Why does everyone need to have Labels?? Gay, straight, black white - who cares! Equal rights for everybody means exactly that - Equal rights no matter what or who you are! Why shouldn't 'gay' people have the right to marry? What is everyone afraid of? This is the year 2010 not 1950! If a gay partnership can be recognised for Centrelink purposes then why can't it be recognised by Law for Marriage Purposes? The government only recognises gay's when it suits them. The only reason that they don't want to make gay marriage legal is because it will upset the church groups which may cause them to loose the election. Why don't our pollies grow a pair and finally do something worthwhile for a bloody change! I SUPPORT GAY MARRIAGE!! I do hope one day you guys will get the same rights as I do.

I agree with Nasasimo. And all this post-modernist junk, thats of the devil. Now God DOES NOT hate homosexuals, HOWEVER he hates what they choose to do, just in the same way he loves all people, but hates acts such as murder, idolatry, dishonouring parents, stealing etc etc. He loves me, but despises the sins that my sinful nature does.
What has Australia come to...this 'fair go' idea is something that the devil has set up. He is cunning, he doesn't just have outright lies, but he mixes a little bit of truth into it to make even the wise fall for his lies. I ask everyone, what was this nation's values built on originally?? Was it not on CHRISTIAN VALUES that this place grew and became what is a free nation. Multicultural also. Thats giving a fair go. But the lie is that giving a fair go should mean that people can do all sorts of things that are sins is one that the world and the devil would like us to believe.
Why not also publisize 'This Is OZ'....lets be equitable....stand up for the rights of being able to lie. I'm sorry but this is not my OZ, and I will not stand for it.
I know this sounds like a harsh message, and it probably wont be taken nicely, but Christ died for everyone, even GLBT people, but in order for salvation, like anyone else, repentance must happen. His love (the only real love) asks only that you recognise your sin and turn from it and to him. I too must recognise my sin daily and turn to him.

I believe that unless our Nation reverts back to Christ, it will eventually become either immoral or amoral in its pursuit of giving everyone a 'fair go', and in that immorality/amorality the devil will be rejoicing in the knowledge that he has prevented the nation from being united with its creator because of the sin he has installed in the nation.

Was it Christian Values that killed Aborigines and desecrated their sacred sites?
Was it Christian Values that upheld a ban against interracial marriage?
Was it Christian Values frowning upon divorce which left some women scared for their lives and the lives of their children?
Wasn't it god fearing folk that burned women at the stake?

Wake up to yourself... In 20 years or so, we will look back on this time and be embarrassed that Australians were against same sex marriage, and god fearing Christian folk will be making excuses for the archaic nature of the churches.

Kids are killing themselves and living on the streets as they cannot handle the shame their parents will feel for being attracted to someone of the same sex.

Embrace our kids, our parents and our brothers and sisters and feel the love of a community through acceptance, not a mystical creature.

Sorry Dean, but you're going to have to "stand for it". The majority of Australians now support equal rights for gay people. Get used to being in the minority. Or get out.

I am a retired Baptist Pastor and when I looked carefully at the original Hebrew and Greek texts of the Bible on homosexuality, I found that in most cases they are actually LYING. They have put words into the translations that don't even exist in the original languages, just to help people be homophobic. Now THAT is sin. It is all about homophobia and church politics. It is NOT about theology.

God creates some people gay. Sorry guys, but it is a proven fact. Get over it.

Only 29% of Australians are homophobic according to latest Morgan research. That is 29% too many.

God is the ultimate and sovereign judge for sin. Homosexuality is sin by His order; it is not decided by public opinion or deceived/false clergy.
Changing societies do not dictate God's standards. Sin is defined by God for us in the Bible. It is the source for what God says is holy and righteous or sin and abomination.
Hebrews 13:8 states that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever; he does not “go with the flow.”

Sexual sins were rampant in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. (This is the origin of the word sodomy.) Despite warnings, they refused to repent. God destroyed those cities and it was recorded as a warning to all future generations. (Genesis 18:20-21, Genesis 19:4-5, 2 Peter 2:6) Some additional scriptures on homosexuality are found in:

Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Romans 1:26-27
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

The price paid for homosexuality and other fornications are told in:

* 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
* Jude 6-7
* Romans 1:18

In spite of the growing secular humanist trend to think "it's ok to be gay," it's not a righteous lifestyle. Most vocal Christians are not homophobic, but are trying to share Christ's love for homosexuals and trying to keep them from horrific judgment.

Is homosexuality a sin? Is there hope for forgiveness?
There absolutely is hope for homosexuals. God can cleanse and purify all persons from sin. As many scriptures as there are that address sin, there are more that speak of forgiveness and redemption. He is able to give deliverance to any who sincerely desire true freedom and salvation. Such is demonstrated in 1 Corinthians 6:11 (KJV): "And such were some of you: but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." This verse says “some of you were,” meaning they became past acts.

We are offered the empowering Spirit of God to help us turn from our sins. Coming out of drug addiction, homosexuality, pornography, or other sin isn't always easy but God will provide the way. Christians are to "love" into the kingdom, those who desire repentance and to live by His natural plan.

Jesus Christ died on the cross for all of our sins and rose again the third day. He desires that we repent and be forgiven of our sins by coming into a personal relationship with Him.

Indiana
Yes true...people have made mistakes in the name of Christ. I dont defend all the horrible things that were forced upon the indigenous people by people claiming to be doing something righteous. Christians are sinners, redeemed only by faith and grace.

I'm going to be praying for you :). It seems as though the enemy has really been trying to build up a hatred against Christianity inside of you. I pray that God would help you to realise not just the bad stuff the church has done (I know it has done bad things) but also the things that you value that have come from the church.

You say wake up, but I have never felt so awake ever. I have questioned my beliefs so many times, wondering why people die in pain, why people are supposedly born homosexual, and I continuously come back to see that God is in control, and that the only way things make sense is with his ways.

Could you think for one second, have you been deceived? Has the world done everything it can to discount any responsibility to someone greater? Has Satan done everything he can to subtly keep you from the one who loves you most? Why do we try so hard to discount the existence of God?

All I can really do is pray for the Holy Spirit to work in your life.

:)

David,

The word also states to beware of false prophets who come in sheep's clothing, but are inwardly ravenous wolves.

No hatred, only dissapointment in any misguided followers that will not accept other human beings. These people choose to hate their gay children rather than love. How terribly sad for these people to miss out on such a wonderful part of their childs life - to see them so happy.

I am VERY proud that I am gay. I have a wonderful partner and together we have a wonderful group of friends, family ,work colleagues and neighbours who love and accept us for who we are.

Dean, I WILL legally marry my partner in my lifetime, WE WILL have children and WE WILL continue to welcome every gay person into our wonderful, loving community. Never have I felt so connected to the gay community as I do now. What a wonderful family we have.

You've had your say now Dean, please respect this forum and let true Australians express thier support and love for our cause.

Good for you Indiana.

Pray for yourself Dean, not us.

To Dean and John
the bible also states

Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and
female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations.

Exodus 21:7 says i can sell my daughter.....

Leviticus 11:10 states it is an abomination to eat shellfish

i could go on and on....

do you wonderful christians follow the above as is stated in your bible!?

I thought that I would just break all of this bible reading stuff and say that homophobia is wrong. If God is so forgiving of his children, why must those who are homosexuals be cleansed? People are born the way they are and it is sad to hear about teen suicide because of homophobics who bully these people to the point where they can't live.
Listen, you are not going to be able to change peoples sexuality no matter how much you think it is wrong. Grow up, and please realise that we are living in the 21st Century. Not the 1900's. Why is it that Australia can be recognised as the nation that is multicultural, but not a nation that is proud to support homosexuals? I'm just saying think about what Australia is standing for right now, and not marginalise homosexuals.

There are some things I will never understand, but I dont mind. I will leave this website now that you ask Indiana, though I believe it a bold call to accuse others of not being true Australians when you speak yourself of multiculturalism.

Believe me Batman, I do pray for myself. I have indulged in sin just as much as any homosexual, and thus I need grace, then turn from my sin.

Tayla, forgiveness is all about cleansing, washing sins white.

Human words are futile to explain to a hardened heart, so I will cease to speak myself.

Thankyou for challenging me to examine my faith by all these questions, that it may be tested and come stronger after being through the fire.

:)

The original languages are inspired. The translations are not. In Gen 19:4-5 it says "All the men of Sodom...where are the men who came with you tonight? Both words for "men" there are Heb enowsh which has happily been translated as "people" in dozens of places eg Ex 10:7 "Let the people go" it is the same word. Why "men" here? In 2 Peter 2:7 and 3:17 in the NIV, it says Lot was distressed by the filthy lives of lawness men. The word "men" in both places doesn't even exist in the Greek. The translators LIED just to help people gay bash and THAT is sin.

What does the Bible say was the sexual sins of Sodom? Jude 7 is the only text and the Greek is sakros heteras. Sakros means "flesh" and we get our word HETEROSEXUAL from "heteras". The Bible clearly says the sins of Sodom were heterosexual, NOT homosexual.

Isaiah 1 and Ezek 16 list the sins of Sodom, and homosexuality is not even mentioned. The 'detestable things" in Ez 16:50 that the people of Sodom did, was idolatry as Deut 29:17, and 23-25 prove. Jesus spoke of Sodom, and He didn't mention it either.

Why did God destroy Sodom? Deut 29:23-25 asks that very question and v 25 says "And the answer will be..." because they abandoned the covenant and committed idolatry." It was NOT because of homosexuality. The onus of proof is on the asserter. If you say it was destroyed because of homosexuality, how about you prove that. Sodom is mentioned 47 times in the Bible. It should be really easy for you.

There is NOT ONE VERSE that says Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality or that it even occurred there.

People who quote Lev 18:22 and 20:13 to condeemn homosexuality need to explain how they obey Lev 19:37 and 20:22 as well as Gal 3:10 and 5:3 and obey ALL the law. You do NOT get a choice, and that includes Lev 20:9 where you MUST kill your children when they throw a tantrum and curse their mother or their father. When people pick and choose what they want to believe it's called cognitive dissonance.

It is also an abomination to touch the body of a dead animal. Is it OK it footballers, wear gloves? Lev 19:17 says "Do not hate your brother in your heart." Thinking of your gay brothers and sisters in Christ, does that one get a tick or a cross? Romans 13: 8-10 says "he who LOVES his fellow man has fulfilled the law.... LOVE does no harm to its neighbour. LOVE is the fulfilment of the law." In all sincereity, God only knows how we need to show LOVE to the gay commiunity, not hatred.

1 Cor 6:9 and 1 Tim 1:10 use a greek word "arsenokoitai" which was a new word that Paul invented. The word for homosexuality in Pauls's day was arrenomanes and that doesn't appear in the Bible anywhere. In the NIV, they couldn't make up their minds as to what arsenokoitai meant as they translated it as "homosexual offenders" in 1 Cor 6:9 and "perverts" in 1 Tim 1:10.These are two vastly different things. It actually means "male prostitutes".

We also need to remember that 1Cor 6:9 also talks about fornicators and adulterers. At a recent pastors' conference they estimated over 90% of their members had had sex before marriage and we were practicing fornicators. Jesus said people who are divorced and remarry are practicing adulterers, yet he didn't say anything about gays. People in both of these catagories of heterosexual sins are acceptable in our churches and are free to do whatever ministry they like. Gays are definitely not. WHY? It is all about homophobia.

I have heard it preached at least 15 times that we get our word "arsenic" from arsenokoitai and how this is a clear indication of the poisonous influence of gays on society. "arsen" in greek means "male" and has absolutely nothing to do with arsenic. The Oxford dictionary says arsenic comes from the Arabic "Al zarnik". They LIED from the pulpit to try to whip as as much homophobia in their congregations as possible. LYING is SIN guys!!!

Romans 1 only refers to homosexuals when they have known the Lord and rejected Him and worshipped idols as they passage clearly says "therefore" v24 and "because of THIS" v26. When BOTH of those are true, and ONLY then, Paul talks about people who have had a heterosexual orientation to start with and abandoned that to PRACTICE homosexuality. 80% of over 400 gays I have surveyed have never known what it is to be attracted to the opposite sex. NEVER. How can Paul or anyone possibly accuse them of abandoning something they have never had? I totally reject that idea.

Body temperature testing is available to prove if a person is gay or not these days. There isn't a single thing anyone can do to influence the outcome of those tests. Some people are born gay. It is a proven fact.

In the Bible two things are against nature. One is people who have known the Lord and rejected him, worshipped idols and then abandoned a heterosexual nature to PRACTICE homosexuality (note nothing is said about sexual orientation). The other thing against nature is men with long hair in 1 Cor 11:14. The Greek is the same in both places. Let's be consistent. If people want to villify people for being gay, let them also villify men with hair longer than 2 cms.

If we stop there, we have missed the WHOLE POINT of Rom 1, which is Rom 2:1 " THERFORE YOU HAVE NO EXCUSE, YOU WHO PASS JUDGEMENT ON SOMEONE ELSE" I have yet to hear that mentioned in any church.

I wrote a paper on this topic and after it was published on the web, in the first month 7000 (90%) out of 7700 agreed with me. 350 gays wrote in to say they had planned to commit suicide over this, but had decided against it. Many said "I never realized God loved me. I always thought he hated me".

Many say we need to love the sinner but hate the sin. Actually Jesus never said that. He said to love the sinner but hate YOUR OWN sin.

My wife and I have many friends, some of whom just happen to be gay. We have loved them, l aughed with them, learned from them, and we have also cried with them...sobbed in fact, mainly over the abuse they have received in church. In the last church I attended, they gay bashed so badly that they even said gays were not welcome to even attend church. Their "All welcome" sign out the front needs to be corrected.

Our gays friends are wonderful people and we love them dearly, just as Jesus does. Many of them are extremely gifted in their chosen fields.

Now, tell me, who are ones who are manipulating, twisting and lying from scripture? It is not the gays, let me assure you. The problem is with the church, not with our dear gay friends.

I am a Retired Baptist Pastor who is a conservative evangelical . But I refuse to lie from the Bible villify gays.

Why does everyone have to keep referring to the bible? I have friends who go to church every Sunday, and they don't discriminate against gay people. Stop alienating these people just because the bible does not agree with a those who are attracted to the same sex. This really like being in primary school, where groups of kids pick on the one child who looks or speaks differently to everyone else. Australia is about giving a fair go to its citizens, not giving them a hard time because of their sexuality.
People who are gay can and do live the same lifestyle as those who are straight. But, there are those people who are intent on making life hard for these people. Seriously, get over yourselves and stop living by the Bible. This is the twenty-first century. Get with the times people

Here here David! Where can I find a copy of your paper? This is a huge topic in my life and would Iove to do more reading on the topic as a lot of it is conflicting. I have enjoyed reading all the posts and it's nice to see religion hasn't clouded everyones view.

silly duffers, why would this site allow it if it said homosexuality is a sin???

perhaps not reading signs properly should be...

Dear John,

Thank you for your words regarding Leviticus and homosexuality... I think I need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

- Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Chinese but not New Zealanders. Can you clarify? Why can't I own New Zealanders?

- I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

- I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

- When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

- I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

- A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

- Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

- Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

- I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

- My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Sarah

I don't understand. Perhaps the church should come up with a new way of recognising a man and woman who want to unite under God, since the current concept of marriage is defaced by a high divorce, low morality society. I suspect the homosexual community will be arguing to have the right to be recognised in the new structure too.

SSS This is the link to my paper.
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/13935.htm

When they updated the websiite, the formatting was changed but it is all still there. It wouldtake about 45 mins to read.

YAY!!! Good for you!!! You restore my faith in liberal politics!

I am a conservative evangelical who does NOT lie from the Bible to gay bash. I am not liberal.

David - sloppy exegesis!

Just to take you up on that passage from Deuteronomy 29:23-25 alone -
The LAND being talked about there is the promised land of Israel! That if the ISRAELITES are unfaithful to the covenant, then THEIR land will be like what was left of Sodom - a wasteland! If you can't exegete, then what's the point!?

Second, the original translation in Genesis 19 reads, "bring out those men so that we may 'know' them." To 'know' in the Old Testament at a deeper level means 'to know intimately' or to 'set ones affections on'. In this case, Lot responds, "Don't do this wicked thing!" What...'know them'? No! Not just know about them! Otherwise, what's the problem Lot's raising? But they wanted to get intimate with and have sex with them! That's the wickedness which you claim there is no answer for why God destroyed the city of Sodom.

David wrote - "I wrote a paper on this topic and after it was published on the web, in the first month 7000 (90%) out of 7700 agreed with me."

Jesus said - "If you belonged to the world, it would love you as it's own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you." (John 15:19).

Be aware when 'the world' loves your teaching.

This last post was edited slightly by the This Is Oz moderators as it contained a personal attack.

Gen 19:4-5 Can be legitimately translated "all the people from every part of Sodom....Where are the people who came to you tonight?" In Ex 10:7 the same Hebrew word enowsh appears and is translated "Let the people go". Are you saying that he only meant for the men to go out of Egypt and all the women and children to stay behind? Why do you say it MUST be "men" in Gen 19? It is because you hate gays and twist the translation just so you can gay bash and that is TOTALLY unacceptable.

Jude 7 is the ONLY other verse that says the sins of Sodom were sexual. The word translated "perverts" is two Greek words "sakros heteras" "sakros" means flesh and we get our word "heterosexual from "heteras". The Bible clearly says there the sexual sins of Sodom were HETEROSEXUAL not homosexual.

The word to "know" in Gen 19 is Heb "yada" and that when used in a sexual context refers to heterosexual sex. In Heb when it refers to homosexual sex, the word is "shakab", not "yada'.

Question for you. In Isaiah 1:17, it says one of the sins of Sodom was that they did not defend the cause of the fatherless or plead the case of the widow. (Note homosexuality or sex of any kind is NOT mentioned. Sounds a bit odd, surely. I thought it would have been the first thing mentioned.) If ALL the "men" ( Gen 19: 4) of Sodom were homosexual, where did the fatherless and widows suddenly appear from in Isaiah 1? If ALL the men were homosexual, there wouldn't have been any fatherless or widows.

When you have finished there, please read Ex 16 49-50 where it lists the sins of Sodom and tell me where it mentions the sin of homosexuality? BTW scripture interprets the "detestable things" they did to be idolatry in Deut 29:17, 23-25, not homosexuality.

The onus of proof is on the asserter. If you say the sins of Sodom were homosexual, please prove that from the original Hebrew and Greek. It shouldn't be too hard for you. There are 47 of them.

Please save your personal attacks for somebody else. Don't ever forget that the WHOLE POINT of Romans 1 is Rom 2:1 which says "You therefore have no excuse, you who passj udgement on someone else." It seems to me you have done little else.

It is a sign of your spiritual maturity how like Jesus you are. Why don't you jbe content just to say what Jesus said about homosexuality?

David

@Thisisoz Admin - "This last post was edited slightly by the This Is Oz moderators as it contained a personal attack."
No it didn't! It was a call for accountability on someone's claims.

@David - How tactful it is to simply call someone 'judgemental' when they don't agree with you. It's called 'discernment'! Discerning good from bad, right from wrong etc. Do you let any old person come in to your house to baby sit your kids? no! You 'discern'! You make proper judgements for their safety on whether it's a good idea or not. You're being 'judgemental'...unless you DO just let in any old person?

Secondly, it's 'sarkos', not 'sakros' in Jude. And you also seemed to have missed the point that after Lot cries "don't do this wicked thing" in Gen 19, he offers his daughters to the crowd instead - as if that is somehow a better option! Of course the crowd wanted the men (or, as they failed to see, angels) that were with Lot! This is the wicked act - men with men! (Unless, you're saying that the 'women' were trying to rape the men?).

Thirdly, the whole point of Romans 1-2 (and the first half of 3) is that no one can stand before God and claim personal righteousness because all have turned away and thus need redemption! Not boasting in yourself naturally comes into it, but you can't forget the former!

Fourthly, no, Isaiah 1 is NOT talking about Sodom and Gommorah (v.10). It's a euphemism to describe the current state Israel was in at the time and the moral decline they'd fallen into (just like Rome is referred to as 'Babylon' in the NT). When did Sodom and Gommorah offer burnt sacrifices to YHWH? When did they celebrate Sabbaths? These are all covenant activities of the people of Israel. Your exegesis again is very sloppy!

"Ex 16 49-50"? Exodus 16 only goes as far as 36 verses! What are you talking about?

Fifthly, Jesus never mentioned homosexuality in the Jewish culture he was walking around in, because the Jews were not endorsing it. He didn't mean to mentioned it! What is does mentioned though is that in marriage a 'man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife' - thus endorsing the heterosexual mandate of Genesis 1-2. But, go outside of Israel - to the Greco-Romans world where homosexuality is practised, and you'll find the issue needs addressing. So it is in Paul's letters.

So it would appear to onus is still on you, since you are the one asserting a different 'scripture' than what is in the Biblical unity as a whole.

Many thanks David! There is chance I would become religious if there were more people like you in the world! I am passing it on to many friends and family. Thank you again!!

In Jude 7, I should have said sarkos. I meant to say Ezekiel 16:49-50. My mistake - my apologies.

You are convinced you are right and I am convinced I am right. The thing that concerns me very much about our discussions is that they are decidedly unchristian.

The only thing that convinced me to change my attitude on this topic was to actually meet gays and to sit with them, to listen to their stories of very deep hurt and abuse by the church that has gone on for years in many cases. Then listen to the stories of parents who have lost their children to suicide as a direct result of what christians who were so convinced they were "right" said to them. I recommend you watch a movie called "Prayers for Bobby" which is based on the true story of Bobby Griffiths who took his own life as a result of the religious beliefs of his mother. It is available on the web. It is a good example of exactly the thing I am talking about. In obedience to Rom 2:1, I do NOT judge them and Jesus said to me I am to love the sinner, and hate MY OWN sin.

A report by Drs Hamilton and Flood on Mapping Homophobia in Australia has shown that gays commit suicide at 6-8 times the national average. This issue is THAT serious.

To me, it is just plain WRONG...VERY VERY WRONG... that Christians and the Church say such deeply hurtful things that they say about gays, I don't care one scrap how fundamentalist you are in believing that your views on the Bible are just so RIGHT!!!!

The Baptist Church here has a policy on gays, PRACTICING OR NOT. They are forbidden to lead, teach, exercise any ministry or do any act of Christian service, and that includes turning up for a working bee, being on the cleaning roster or helping to take up the offering. Non-practicng murderers, thieves, rapists and terrorists are free to exercise any ministry they like.

At a pastors conference, ministers estimated that 90% of heterosexuals married in their churches have had sex before marriage and are practicing fornicators. They are just fine. Practicing adulters are fine including those who have divorced and remarry.

My wife and I thought we would try out a new life group in the church at the start of this year. They raised the topic of homosexuality and gay bashed full on the entire time. One guy even said "Gays are f..gts and p..fters who are not welcome to even attend church." Their "All Welcome" sign out the front needs to be corrected. These sorts of comments are a direct attack on who gays are as people. Whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, some people are born gay. It is definitely not a choice and no it cannot be changed. There is medical proof of that FACT.

I have left the church permanently and I have severed all contact with anyone from any church. While I will always be a follower of Jesus, I no longer call myself a christian, because I completely unable to reconcile the attitude of so called Christians towards gays with those of the Lord Jesus whom I have loved and served for 49 years.

If you are gay and reading this, God loves you, my friend. He doesn't hate you, no matter what anyone does, no matter what anyone says.

In all seriousness, what would Jesus do?

David - Retired Baptist Pastor

Hi again David.

I am truly sorry to hear about such negative hatred. I truly am (whether you believe me or not).

I DO know gay people. And church associations that I have had in the past have not responded with such hate and discrimination. Nor have they treated one sin as somehow worse than another.
You asked, 'what would Jesus do?' I would respond (in light of scripture), he would love the sinner (just like we all should), but implore them to leave their life of sin (John 8:11). That one sin is not more condemning than another. But all need to repent and come back to God.

We can both (it seems) cite medical statistics - you saying the homosexual tendency exists from birth, and myself arguing that it does not (we could go round and round in circles). But perhaps in your case it's a great thing to show the people you know the love of Christ whilst praying that God would speak to them in their own time.

I wish to quote a Christian man (his words, not mine!) I know who struggles with homosexual feelings:
"I can tell you that the homosexual condition is not a blessing. It is part of the curse that the world is now under, having been thrown out of the garden of Eden...the (blessing) is Jesus Christ our Lord, who reconciles people to God. Of course this liberal theology, to which even some prominent church leaders subscribe, is welcomed by the secular world. But to me, it's a prime example of discrimination because it is effectively saying, 'We aren't going to bother bringing the Gospel message to you lot, because you belong in the "too hard basket" and well, God accepts you as you are."
And with that, he quotes Liberty Ministries at www.libertychristianministries.org.au/
It's because of guys like this who are seeking God and truth, and are struggling with homosexual tendencies that I want to speak out for and support in Christian love.

I wanted to give a couple of examples of what I call abuse by Christians and the church towards gays that I have known.

When a gay christian went to a Baptist Christian doctor, the doctor arranged for his "patient" (assuming he was ever sick in the first place) to have a wire ring placed around his private parts that measuered temperature changes. The doctor then showed the man about a 1000 pictures of men and 1000 pictures of women over about 10 days. The doctor then attached wires that delivered high voltages of electricity when the gay was was aroused when seeing pictures of men with the PROMISE that his sexual orientation would be changed. When it didn't work, the man asked another doctor at the hospital where it was performed how many had changed their sexual orientation and that doctor said that NOT ONE person's sexual orientation had been changed. The Baptist Christian doctor had LIED.

However it did prove that the guy was born gay as there isn't a single thing that anyone can do to influence the outcome of those tests.

Another case. A young gay guy in high school came out to his parents who then went to their Baptist Pastor who said that God would never bless their home while a homosexual was living there. The parents went home, put everything belonging to their son out on the porch and changed all the locks. Two weeks later that young guy committed suicide.

Third case. Recently a teenage guy came out to his parents who then arranged for a christian doctor from their church to see the guy and he actually prescribed a drug to chemically castrate the guy in an attempt to "cure" him of his homosexuality. When it didn't work, the parents put their own son out on the street, and changed the locks and said they never wanted to see him again.

All of this was done in the name of Christ and His church.

If that is Christianity, I do NOT WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT EVER AGAIN.

I no longer call myself a Christian and I do not want to have any contact with anyone from a church.

All the gays I know are wonderful people and I am very proud to call every single one of them my friend. To me that is EXACTLY what Jesus would do.

David - Retired Baptist Pastor

I read this entire argument, and I simply cannot stop myself from adding my disgruntled view.

I believe in God. In Jesus. In my Holy Lord! I believe in Him and I believe in His word. Above all, I believe in His love. The love He has for ALL OF US. REGARDLESS OF OUR "SINS".

Now, I can't help but feel greatly ashamed of fellow religious people. Of fellow Australians.
HI, I'M TURKISH. MY PARENTS CAME TO AUSTRALIA AS IMMIGRANTS. THEY HAD TO DEAL WITH RACISM. BUT IT IS NOW UNACCEPTABLE TO BE RACIST. I WAS BORN IN AUSTRALIA. I GREW UP LEARNING TO LOVE EVERYONE. REGARDLESS OF THEIR COLOUR, RACE, OPINIONS AND WHO THEY CHOOSE TO BED WITH AND THE MANNER THEY CHOOSE TO EXPRESS THEIR LOVE FOR A SIGNIFICANT OTHER.

Yeah that's right, I'm talking about homosexuals.

I have gathered that some of the "Christians" here agree that God loves homosexuals, but He simply does not love or accept the way that homosexuals choose to express their love.
May I ask why?
Who gives you the right to judge that God doesn't like that?
The Bible is full of, I have to admit, verses that make no sense for our current lifestyle, for the current world, for our current opinions and ideas.

I don't know which God you're worshiping but he doesn't sound like my God. My great God who loves and accepts homosexuals and heterosexuals, different and alike. He accepts and embraces the different ways homosexuals and heterosexuals love and express their love. He can see into our hearts and He knows which side - good or bad - you decide to act on. He watches over us, and hopes that all humans - religious or not - will live by the greatest power (equal to God's power, which, oh!, I wouldn't have realized, happens to be love) of all. LOVE

God is all knowing. God has watched over us for centuries. He has watched the world evolve, and He has watched us evolve and with this evolving, He has watched us adapt to the new world, and to see His word in a new light. In a new way. He encourages us to grow with our growing world, to develop as beings, as creations, as children of God. So long as there are people who consider themselves Christians, Muslims, Jewish, religious, followers of God and who continue to live backwards, refuse to move forward with this new age and who refuse to accept that God is watching us evolve and learn and develop new ideas and that He has already accepted the difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals. As long as there are these people who are determined to refer to God's love in such an awful way, as long as there are these people we, as a nation, as a race cannot move any closer to God and to understanding His love.

Ultimately, if you think anal sex is wrong and is a sin, and homosexuals should be punished for practicing it, go and talk to all the heterosexuals who engage in this pleasurable act.

God loves us. He accepts homosexuals and heterosexuals. He accepts and adores the love that we, as His children, can express to each other. Is this not the greatest love of all? Accepting and embracing our differences?
I firmly believe that God has this love.
There is no difference between homosexual and heterosexual love. Each is as important, as vital, as special, as beautiful, as the other. And God recognizes this, knows this, and understands this
And I do too.

@liver for love: "I don't know which God you're worshiping but he doesn't sound like my God."

Well, quite frankly, it sound like 'your' god is a projection of your own ideas. As you've clearly alluded to, it appears your notion of 'god' is the embodiment of the concept of the emotion of love that you feel inside you - a 'creation'...and not the 'Creator'.

You said yourself - "God loves us..." "God is all knowing..." etc.
Tell me, on what do you base these assurances? The ONLY way you can know any fact about God is if he first reveals those facts about himself to us. Christians believe that the God who created the whole universe has revealed himself in a way that we can comprehend, and especially so when he became one of us in the human Jesus of Nazareth. HIs words, 'likes' and 'disprovals' etc, being preserved in scripture so we today can continue to know God. If God has done the greater thing (becoming incarnate human so we can know him), he can surely do a simple, lesser thing (preserve his words up to today so his voice is still active.

However, if you opt out of choosing 'revelation' to find out what God is like, you're only left with 'speculation' - human effort to reach up and try to 'find' God. And of course, with billions of humans with different ideas and experiences, comes billions of different gods. In your case (and it's a popular one today), it's a god who simply loves and approves of anything that suits the worshipper. A god who serves you! (not the other way round).

Now, I had to give that precursor to how we can 'know' God before looking at some of your claims. You "firmly" claim that God 'embraces' and 'accepts' a homosexual way of expressing love (I take that to mean as you already described the act of anal sex between a same-sex couple).
On what authority do you base these "firm" claims from? Was that 'revealed' from God? Despite the consistent testimony of scripture (Old to New Testament) declaring the opposite? (Remember: if you abandon God's self-revelation in scripture, you're merely speculating and making up your own god(s) - it's a "free-for-all"...but also a delusion).

Or, are you 'disgruntled' because (since this is basically what sin is) God is demanding something of you and you refuse to listen to what he says? You'd prefer to be the one making the demands?
By all means, continue to worship 'your god', but don't claim that that is the biblical God as revealed to us by himself.

Hi, this is quite an exciting, thought provoking and challenging sign Stephen. I love the way it turns 'homosexuality is a sin' right on its head. Funny how this aspect of your message has been hijacked :)

I would love to read comments and a discussion on homophobia being a sin.

And I'd be really happy if this thread respected different opinions, positions and approaches to spirituality. We are not all christian. I accept and celebrate that there are many ways to understand and worship god...just as there are many ways to be and express sexuality and gender identity. Thankyou.

Interesting discussion.
Am wondering at what level should 'experience' dictate 'reality' or 'truth'? But I'm staying out of the whole god thing! Too philosophical for me!

is this guy still in??

Yes, I am.